Dr Nafie Ali Nafie is a Pan-African with no kind words for the West; a guru in Sudan’s domestic politics, he has previously served as the Chief of national intelligence and security services in President Omar Al-Bashir’s government.

The 67-year-old American trained scholar in Genetics is a revered African ideologue currently serving as the Secretary General of the Council of African Political Parties (CAPP).

Nafie was in Kigali last week for the African Union’s 4th Annual High Level Dialogue on Democracy, Human Rights and Governance in Africa. He spoke to The New Times Kenneth Agutamba and shared his thoughts on the state of democracy and human rights in Africa.

Below are the excerpts:

You have attended the AU high level dialogue on democracy, human rights and governance here in Kigali; in your opinion, what is the current state of democratic governance and human rights in Africa?

First of all let me appreciate the AU for inviting me here as the Secretary General of the Council of African Political Parties. We have a memorandum of understanding with the AU regarding these issues of democracy, governance and human rights in Africa.

As CAPP, we appreciate very much and encourage the work of the AU’s political department in domesticating the terms democracy, and good governance, which is the focus of this particular conference, although with particular attention paid to the role of women in participating in party politics and I think it was a very good conference, we held frank discussions with a number of active players given an opportunity to share their experience. It was a very enlightening conference whose discussions we need to follow up.

Tell us about the Council of African Political Parties and what vision you have

Most of Africa’s independence from colonialists was led by revolutionary groups that had different ideological leanings; most had strong links to Eastern socialist ideology while others adopted western ideologies which caused a long standing ideological conflict among African political parties.

The idea behind CAPP was simple: to end this ideological divide and harmonise parties to support a common African agenda that put development at the fore, after all, we are all interested in mostly the same things: international policies that respect our sovereignty, mutual respect, and getting the best out of our natural resources. We can push for these interests jointly.

So that is why we are working closely with the AU, to get political parties to abandon their ideological differences and pursue interests that benefit African people.

In 2013, we convened for the first time to launch an institution that would drive this agenda; over 40 parties from more than 30 countries attended and the Council was established with automatic membership open to all ruling parties and the largest opposition party in each country…so we are not that old.

Nonetheless, we have managed to establish very strong links with parties in Asia, Latin America and the Caribbean. In April, next year, we hope to have a tripartite meeting bringing together the (political party) councils of Africa, Asia and Latin America.

You are making a case for African countries working together yet Sudan seems to be left in isolation from all the regional integration efforts going on including in East Africa, why is that?

The problem with all African countries is that we are not yet fully liberated. Very few of these regional blocs are independent; therefore, even joining them could be a subject to a lot of external pressures.

For the case of my country, the west is not interested in seeing us play an active role in Africa because they believe we are rebels. We accept that, we are rebels and we will be rebels as long as we are pushed around.

What is the role of women in Sudanese politics?

They are very much involved. Every political party in Sudan has women in very senior positions.

For instance, in the ruling National Congress Party (NCP) to which I belong, we have an executive office with a number of ladies there, the party’s training academy, its foreign affairs office as well as social affairs, for instance, are all run by women.

We also have so many female representatives of parties, including from mine, which has more than 35 representatives in the national assembly. The two deputies to the Speaker of the assembly are women, one from the ruling party (NCP) and another from Democratic United Party (opposition). So we have very many of them, including senior female judges.

You talked of the need to domesticate democracy, how would you like to see this term, democracy, defined, in an African context?

We must say no to western definitions and create our own African democracies. But, even in Africa, there’s no one- size-fits-all solution, so one universal definition can’t work for all countries, the definitions must take in consideration the different situations of each country.

President Al-Bashir’s government has been on the spot internationally for gross human rights abuses, what do you have to say on Khartoum’s human rights record?

The human rights condition in Sudan is far much better than the situation in USA, Britain and France. I am not simply claiming that. It is the fact. How do you explain the situation in Guantanamo Bay, where people are imprisoned for years without trial and released without being taken to court?

What do you think of the sickly prisons that the Americans were running? What do you think of all the drone strikes that have claimed thousands of innocent lives in Middle East? These are masters at hypocrisy. The idea of tainting the image of Sudan based on human rights abuse claims is just for political reasons.

A few years ago, your country split after a referendum and gave way for the creation of South Sudan, as an independent State, what is the relationship between the two countries now?

Well, it is supposed to be very good. The problem is that there is a conflict in the South, so there is no stability. We are doing our best, talking to the two sides to reconcile so that we have a stable South, otherwise a conflict there has effects not only on Khartoum but the whole region and no one wants it that way.

We are playing our role as part of the IGAD, to resolve the conflict in the South and we also have very close contact with both President Salva Kiir and Dr. Riek Machar ( the rebel leader).

There is hope though, because there is immense pressure from everywhere that’s heaped on both sides to support peace efforts.

What direct effects has Khartoum suffered as a result of the conflict in South Sudan?

First of all, we have so many refugees fleeing to the North away from the conflict in the South. Secondly, trade between the two countries has been battered by the conflict. These are very bad effects on us.

With this raging conflict in the South, seen as a senior politician and strategist in President Al-Bashir’s government, would you say the secession of South Sudan to form an independent State, was a mistake?

It was an unfortunate thing to happen but there was no other way (to resolve the situation) other than the referendum. But it was always our wish in the north to maintain the unity of Sudan; it was our brothers in the South that really wanted a separation after they failed to take the whole of Sudan (by rebellion). In the end, separation was the best solution for all.

Earlier, you mentioned that Africans are under attack from international propaganda spreading through western media; in your view, what should countries do to deconstruct these so called negative narratives created by external parties?

First of all, we should concentrate on those who are interested in knowing the reality in our different countries and this is why we are reaching out to all our brothers in Africa, Asia and Middle East…these people have a distorted picture of Sudan because of the effects of western propaganda.

We are reaching out in an attempt to clear the air on Sudan; for instance, if you had a chance to ask President Paul Kagame about the situation in Darfur, he was there, he saw and knows the reality on the ground…the propaganda on the situation in Darfur is unjustified.

So we are doing our best to convey the reality of the situation inside Sudan, to those who wish to know it although we also acknowledge the fact that we don’t have much hope in defeating western media and reshaping public opinion in London, Washington or Paris, I don’t think we have the resources.

You acknowledge that you perhaps can’t fight and defeat the West, so are you doing anything to improve relations between Sudan and western governments?

We have done so in the past. We are still doing our maximum best. We keep trying. But the prevailing situation is that this relationship should be based on their terms, which we will not accept, we will not do.

What are your views on global terrorism and its links to Islam?

We believe that those Muslims involved in terrorism have a distorted idea about Islam. Being a good Muslim doesn’t give you a right to kill others here and there.

So we are against them because they are distorting the idea of Islam. We are against them because the west is using terrorism to fight Islam.

The effect of Western aggression on the Arab world in Afghanistan, Iraq and elsewhere has pushed people to extremism. So we are doing our best at the national level to correct the misconception of Islam.

editorial@newtimes.co.rw