The United Nations High Commission for Refugees (UNHCR) country representative, Saber Azam, on Wednesday visited the new Mahama Refugee Camp, in Kirehe District, where Burundian refugees are being resettled. The New Times’ James Karuhanga caught up with him and he shared his views on a wide range of related issues, including the UN agency’s interest in promoting the education of refugee children.Saber, who has for over the last 20 years been working to support refugees, is categorical when advocating for strong political and financial support by the International Community to Rwanda so that the country can properly deal with refugee protection and care. Excerpts;-

How are we doing with the refugee situation?

This is a very complex refugee situation because of a variety of reasons. First of all because the situation in the country of origin is very uncertain, unpredictable. Whatever you plan can change at any given minute. Initially, we were thinking that if the situation in Burundi becomes more complicated, we might have up to 10,000 people but now we are already at 23,000 and the situation is still not calm.

When refugees come to Rwanda, they come from different entry points and they have to be gathered into the major entry points and from there they have to be transported to the reception centres of Nyanza and Bugesera. From there, they have to be transported to this refugee camp. At each level, you have to meet their protection and assistance needs and, that makes the operation very complicated because you have to divide your resources and forces to different locations.

The other challenge is that Nyanza and Bugesera are too small to contain such a big number of refugees and I think it is due to the diligence of the Government of Rwanda and good work of all actors involved that we don’t have a major problem. With such a big number of people, you may have a disease, a sanitation problem or all sorts of other hazards. Thank God, it hasn’t happened.

Coming to the camp, I am really very pleased to see that it is developing very fast. Between the day we were told that the new refugee camp would be here (Mahama), and the initial arrival of newcomers, we just had four days. Within four days, we had to clean, bring water, create sanitation facilities, erect tents, and create community places.

I think it is one of the fastest success stories that we have in terms of the development of a camp.

Compared to?

Compared to any other refugee camps in the world. Look at the images of other refugee camps. People live under plastic sheets and under very difficult conditions. Here, if they don’t have individual tents, at least they have a place to protect them from rain, wind.

This is not optimal, depending on the situation of refugees. If the situation back home improves they will go home and if not they may have to stay for a longer period in which case we shall help them construct solid shelters. But in the mean time, they have a place to sleep and that is the tent which is a very nice two-layer tent completely sealed and with mosquito nets.

Talking about where they are coming from, and the bigger problem. How do you think the influx of refugees can be cut?

You are asking a very philosophical question. Look at the situation of the world. The number of refugees and number of people affected by conflict is increasing on a daily basis. So, there is indeed a sort of pessimism generally about the situation of the world. Look at the Central African Republic, look at DR Congo, Somalia, Syria, Iraq, Afghanistan… you have multiple places where conflict is uprooting people.

My hope is that the development in Burundi will be such that this tension will be short so that people could go home. That’s the ideal situation. There is no place better than home.

From all I gather, the Rwandan government could be scared of the refugee numbers hitting 50,000.

There has been talk that if the worst comes to the worst, government will engage you, the partners about finding another country to take them in. What do you make of this?

First of all, I think that there is very good solidarity among east African countries but we are not yet at that situation. Every week, we are looking at how much progress is made, how many people are coming, and at this stage, the flow of refugees is alarming.

Having 23,000 people over a month is practically nearly 1,000 people coming per day. This is a very high figure. I cannot really now anticipate what may happen. The government has contingency planning and, of course, we are aware and we will provide our support to the government no matter what situation.

We have over 23,000 Burundians, and over 70,000 Congolese refugees on Rwandan soil How are you coping so far?

I know. In some other places, we have over a million refugees. The coping mechanism exists in terms of people coming to meet the needs of refugees. The bad news is that if the number increases then we will need more resources and, at this stage, to think that the international community would provide unlimited resources is very uncertain.

Therefore, and this is where we need you, the media, because you are our partners.  You play a very important role in sensitising world opinion about the challenges that, in your own opinion, think exist and about the challenges that could happen.

At UNHCR, we never consider media as a foreign body. Media is part of those we consider as our closest partners. We are approaching donors but every day, they read your newspaper.

What should donors know at this moment?

Donors should know that the number is increasing and each individual needs shelter, health care, water, a place to shower, to go to school, and children separated from their families need to be reunited with their families, there are psycho-social problems as people harassed and traumatised from their country of origin need help, and all that is not free of charge. With all the will that the government of Rwanda has, the government needs to be supported.

The cleaning of this camp was done by the local population during Umuganda (monthly community work) and they cleared this place very well. This is enormous solidarity. Under normal circumstances, in another country, we would have been obliged to pay for it. Donors should be very generous vis-à-vis the refugee programme in Rwanda.

Besides the cash donations, wouldn’t it be much more fulfilling if the international community intervened to solve the root cause of the problem?

Definitely, I think that if we can address the root cause of the problem, there is no need for people to take flight. But gain, my job is not politics. I am dealing with a humanitarian agency; I am dealing with consequences of conflict. We do our best to deal with the consequences of the conflict in the most efficient way possible.

You noticed that the majority of the refugee population are women and children. Yes, I echo what you said, that the international community should address the root cause of the problem in Burundi in order for us not to have refugees here.

How are you involved in education? You have hundreds of kids who are out of school now. Any hope they will continue school?

In my address to the refugees, this is a point I raised. In addition to giving them some advice, keeping their community clean, respecting the laws of the host country, I said that I am aware of the fact that their children need education. It is going to come. It is a priority.

How are we doing it? In other refugee camps, UNHCR is supporting education of refugee children – primary, secondary and even in some cases, upper secondary.

In some areas such as in Kigeme camp, we have started integrating. We don’t have a separate refugee school. We are supporting national schools and refugees go to national schools. We have a programme in the refugee camps which we call Excellence Programme for providing scholarships to refugee students who come top of their classes.

Currently, we have over 100 university scholarships that we are providing to refugee students and we intend to increase that. And in the very near future, we will be opening a programme of online higher education to refugee children, because probably a scholarship taking people to another location to study could be more expensive.

There is a deep interest in promoting the education of refugee children. Hopefully, and very soon, some of our very strong partners will get interested in the leadership training of refugees. A refugee can be a future leader of her country. We have so many Rwandans who are in leadership positions but are former refugees. This is fantastic and we believe Congolese and Burundian refugees have this potential. Any refugee has this potential. Don’t forget that Albert Einstein, who changed the face of the world, was a refugee.

You have just given birth to probably the biggest camp in Rwanda, can we even start thinking of its lifespan?

It is very difficult to say. In principle, a refugee status should be short. But let’s also be realistic. When the Congolese came here about 20 years ago, people were thinking that they will return immediately after. But slowly we started having more refugees and now we have five very solid camps.

Most refugees in the camp are kids. How much do we need? Can we put a figure to all these needs?

It is very difficult. To provide the very basic services, from camp establishment, health care, and other services, I am not saying this is the situation here but you have to count, based on our experience, practically more than a 1,000 dollars per person.

This is unfortunately, the reality. But let me also point out that this over 1,000 dollars is the cost of the house, cost of the construction of the camp, cost of health care, education… believe you me, if you compare to a standard situation, this is really nothing.

I was calculating with my colleagues and I informed the donor community about it. I said, for the Congolese situation, we are practically paying 0.3 dollars, or 30 cents, per person per day inclusive of everything. Now, you can tell me, can one person live on 30 cents per day? This is, unfortunately, the reality, whereby, we need you [media] to sensitise people. Every staff that you employ needs money. Every piece that you buy costs money. Every line of power connection needs money. Tents have a cost. Add the cost of water, sanitation, and many more other things.

What would you like to see East African leaders doing to cool down the situation in Burundi so that people could go back home?

You see, you are again bringing me up at the political level. You can’t run away from the politics. I can have my personal opinion like anybody else but I am not really in a position to comment on what is going on there [Burundi] except for a very deep wish of the improvement of the situation. Don’t forget that we are dealing with lives of people, lives of refugees, lives of staff members and partners who are working with us. I hope that some politicians will give up on their positions.

Finally, life is an issue of compromise. I do believe that the solution, in any conflict, is a compromise among actors. If there is no compromise, unfortunately, the situation will deteriorate.

Your final word...

We are really grateful and convey very deep gratitude to the people of Rwanda. I know how much, for example, the population gave on their own. People came with their hearts and cleaned the area. This is an enormous expression of solidarity, friendship and fraternity. We have seen it in the case of Congolese and now we see it in the case of Burundians. It is in the blood of Rwandans to be generous and to show their hospitality. And the international community needs to underst and this and support Rwandans.